A Discussion Between BigPulse voter "Ron" and Walpurgis

Ron wrote “You have apparently heard (though failed to understand) what christianity means.” This is funny. Is this a case of “if you don’t agree with me, you don’t understand me“? No, I haven’t heard, instead I studied theology and the philosophy of religion for 5 years. I have a full & rich understanding of Christian theology from its poisoned roots in Ancient Greece to the rotten fruit of the late 20th century. Having studied Christian (& other religious) values in depth I have come to the conclusion that many of them are flawed, corrupt, hateful & sick. However, there *are* also positive values, but these are values which Christianity (& other religions) alone do not hold.

It seems that you consider core Christian values to be “that people actually care about one another, and perform actions that are a reflection of positive values like love and respect.” Unfortunately, the demand for Christian values is too general, hence my original question. As I’m sure you’re aware, Christianity is a very broad church & “core” values are contested. Indeed, if what you consider to be this religions core values are love & respect, then the various Churches have failed constantly & spectacularly throughout history. Even a shallow understand of history will prove me right, but allow me to remind you of the wars, persecutions, torturings, misogyny, conquests & colonialisations, genocides, rapings, lies, exploitation, environmental pollution & degradation, murders, nightmares & misery that have been spread by Christianity. True, some good has come of its charitable works (though not all Christian charities have resulted in goodness) and some great art has been created (& some terrible art). True, Christianity is different to Christians, the domineering institutions often don’t match individual beliefs & practices. I adore the Christian writings, drawings & poetry of William Blake & the eclectic Christian songs & music of David Tibet (Current 93). But these men aren’t just Chrisitians & they approach their faith with concern & criticism & synthesise it with worthwhile elements of other religions & philosophies. My objection to “Christian values” is an objection to the historical institutions that have been guilty of crimes worse than Nazi Germany & Stalinist Russia (just count the dead & mutilated people). It is an objection too, to those who blindly & willingly follow these Churches without a critical perspective. Those Christians (& other persons) who think deeply, sincerely & critically out their beliefs & lives have my support - even if they don’t come to the same conclusions.

Love & respect are good values to be sure, but there are others values, sometimes in opposition to these. What is good depends on a situation. A wise man once said: “There are no moral phenomenon, only a moral interpretation of phenomenon”.

“The negative values you were concerned about do not reflect true christian values.” In your opinion, but in the opinion of other Christians, it does.

“Yes, there will be a judgement after this life. Even non-christian belief systems teach this.” My belief system (my own) does not. *Some* non-Christian systems do, but not all. This is not proof of anything. Besides, if you are wanting to go into the faith-shattering abyss of comparative religion, then please, do so. You’ll find that world religions have less & less in common as you first hoped.

“It is my belief that all humans are moving toward judgement. Like falling from a building, you can believe as you wish but the end of the fall will arrive and the results are determined by your actions during this life.”

This is not a sound analogy. Falling (such a trite Christian image!) from a building has physical consequences that can be empirically verified. Eschatology cannot be verified *by definition*. A better analogy for the eschatological belief of future judgment would be based on uncertainty because final judgement (& indeed god & your values & all the rest of it) are uncertain (far more uncertain then a grisly death at the bottom of a fall).

“Good luck with your path (it sounds like you will need it)”. Quite right, I’ll certainly need it, though I don’t follow a path. I’m not so arrogant or sanctimonious as to believe that I don’t need help or that there is one true way (or indeed, any true way). I follow many roads inspired by many experiences, thoughts, art & philosophies, which meander & twist & criss-cross, which might go no-where in the end.

“If there were no harassment or mistreatment of children first, then adults, I believe that there would be a dramatic drop in unsocial and criminal behavior.” This goes without saying & has nothing to do with just Christian values. There is nothing uniquely Christian in this argument.

“Both selfishness and personal ego are opposed to love and good order in society. “ I disagree. Selfishness has its use & place, as does ego & besides, it is impossible not to be self-interested. Goodness & love are rooted in oneself & go outwards, these feelings don’t just come out of no-where & float around. But then again, if you’re a theist, I suppose they do! What a strange god.

“Standards of behavior have been commanded by religion in both written and verbal traditions.” And non-religious traditions. Religion is not the sole guardian of morality or ethics.

“Most of these have become laws that now govern behavior.” This is part of the problem. Religious value should never become law. It leads to this social situation, the invasion of privacy & conscience & other human & animal rights abuses.

“When legislation is taken farther than this, it can oppress rather than protect societies.” As much as you want it to, the Bible & Church dogma don’t cover most modern day problems. Legislation is necessary. I fear your desire for theocracy - this would be something I’d take up arms against.

“Perhaps a return to basic christian values would solve many of societies problems” You have still not defined what these are. If you are prescribing a way of life, you need to be more clear.

“True christian values will improve life even for non-christians. The "great" commandment is to love God and the second is to love others.” I find this pitiably misguided. How can you presume to force Christian values on those cultures, sub-cultures, ethnic groups & nationalities for whom Christian values are an irrelevance? You think that these Christian values are for everyone, but love & respect are not *just* Christian values. The type of love you want - loving god before people - is what has got is in this mess. You think our society is hurtling into the void because of lack of Christian values. In actual fact, if you understood the social, philosophical & historical background to Judeo-Christian values you will find that the reasons for our current social problems are mostly caused, supported or agitated by Judeo-Christian values becuase these values are a continuation of the values before them - Christianity changed little except the balance of power between Jews & Romans. The belief that ones own life is actually owned by god leads to anti-choice arguments concerning abortion & euthanasia. The promises of Genesis have lead to the rapine attitudes which have destroyed our environment & harmed & murdered women for thousands of years. Enforcing monogamy & heterosexuality has lead to our sexual & emotional problems. Christian militarism has lead to countless wars & deaths. Christian work-ethic resulted in capitalism & exploitation. Christian religious imperialism has lead to colonisation & subsequent revolts. Christian asceticism has lead to self-denial & self-hatred. The belief in god has lead people to care more about their own piety & after-life, than other people, to allow the world to go to hell because it is going to anyway. If you understand the history of your religion you will understand the reasons for your apocalyptic beliefs (something which was expected to happen 100 years after Christ’s death), that Christ is a borrowed term meaning - “anointed with menstrual blood of the Earth Mother” - which Jesus never was. Dionysus was more a Christ than Jesus. That pagan imagery suffices Christianity (the trinity was a widely worshipped god-head in the Mediterranean during & before Greco-Roman times), the cross is an down-turned (i.e. impotent) pagan phallic symbol, Mary & virgin birth waere old hat before Christianity & the Bible is an archaeological/textual/linguistic mess. Go and study theology, church history, classics & biblical exegesis if you don’t believe me. And if you accept the historical problems, how can you accept values that are 2000 yrs old, & have had plenty of time to prove their worthlessness? Isn’t it time to try something new? Isn’t it time to work for new values, try to create a good life without these regressive notions? Isn’t the historical weight of agony & death enough to crack these 10 stones? Does god even matter anymore?

“And God, an old man heart-broken from the horribly bad taste left after the failure of his work, begst those gathered at the last judgment for forgiveness.” (Witkacy)